Liverpool vs Arsenal, 1-2: Full time thoughts, analysis and player ratings
The Game
I will not lie to you, dear friends, we got lucky.
Liverpool should have killed us off in the first half, a shocking, depressing and negative first 45 minutes after which I told all those in the chat room that only luck could have helped us out of trouble, and luck accepted my invitation to put us level. And if luck was required to get back in the game, magic was needed to go in front, and Arshavin provided just that.
Andrey Arshavin, Liverpool vs Arsenal
We’re 100% back in the title race of course but problems are still there and they may come back to haunt us, starting from Wednesday.
Below are the ratings. Easy are not this time as considering how different they were, I could have easily given the players two ratings, one for the first half and one for the second.
Match Video Highlights
Match video highlights are available in the Videos section of our website. If not there yet, rest assured they will be up in a matter of hours.
Player Ratings
Almunia: 3 – So, so insecure. When high balls are thrown in the penalty area, he always makes a step forward and one backwards, no idea why.
Traore: 6,5 – A very, very solid performance, he’s clearly improving game after game.
Gallas: 7 – Considering all that was thrown at him in the dying minutes, he coped well.
Vermaelen: 8 – Immense performance, especially in the final part of the game.
Sagna: 6,5 – Not the best of games for Bacary, especially when going forward where he failed to provide what we needed in the first half. He did however provided security at the back, as he always does after all.
Denilson: 4,5 – Misplaced passes, attempted penalty, attempted red card, oh boy, when you think he can’t be more shocking, he comes up with those first 45 minutes. He did recompose in the second half when luckily it wasn’t too late.
Song: 6 – Like Denilson he raised his game in the second half, but in the first half he was very poor, keeping the ball in his feet way too much.
Fabregas: 6 – A very anonymous game from the captain, who failed to stand up for the test, especially in the first half, like the rest after all.
Nasri: 6,5 – Considering all, it wasn’t easy for the wingers to create something today and he in fact saw very little of the ball, but was very active on both wings.
Walcott: 4 – I think he still needs two, maybe three games to be back Theo. He timed his runs well but when he had the ball, he failed to make an impact.
Arshavin: 8 – I don’t care that he was totally anonymous before the goal, these are the sort of goals that win matches and win leagues.
(Subs)
Diaby: No Vote – Very little involved, made mistakes when he did.
Silvestre and Ramsey: No Vote – Too little for both of them.
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Luck was a factor but give the boys credit. We were out played in the first half but still kept liverpool at bay they weren’t that dangerous. In the second half we realy took the game to them and created our own luck. Even if we realy only turned up for 20 minutes in the entire game we defended quite well.
Anyhow luck or not we defeated a full strength Liverpool away from home with injury problems. This result was realy needed for confidence and belief. We still need a centre forward though I think the game against Villa will realy tell where we stand. Hopefully Eduardo, Walcott and Diaby will get some more game time before then.
You have a point Cameron but the back four(I believe Traore is finally doing OK) and the midfield was the regular one, no injuries, no suspensions. Yet we were again put under heavy pressure in a first half which seriously, we need to forget as quickly as possible.
No injuries or suspension to the midfield except for Rosicky. The forward line has been gutted though which realy left our midfielders with little outlet up front except for Arshavin who isn’t the tallest. I know we were under pressure i’m just happy we handled the pressure well and didn’t realy allow Liverpool any real clear cut chances.
It is funny we win this game though when we performed better in others that we lost but it took character and we defended quite well. The midfield had to cope with Masherano and Lucas + constant fouling. I think its the reaction at half time and how we defended I take a lot from. I know we still have problems but we are realy helping ourselves against the odds at the moment.
i really don’t agree with song rating…for me he was the man of the match (and arshavin of course because he scored the magical goal)…very very solid even in the first half…
song and vermaelen are our most consistent performers this season…I don’t wann’a know how the team looks without them….now they just can’t be replaced
and traore wasn’t that good…he was helped a lot by the team on that flank…i remember 3 very dangerous actions because of his mistakes…
anyway i’m verry happy with the win and I rilly wann’a see how will the team resist with arshavin as a striker in the future games..like u said chris today we had luck…let’s be realistic..
i do think as well song was the man of the match…the guy is composed….
Nice one, Chris.
Dear me! Thank Imhotep for Andrei’s incredible firepower (with deceivingly little (or no)) back-lift! We had absolutely f.ckall of any mentionable value on target tonight, so we badly needed someone to just step up and unleash.
Andrei even went for the long range moments after his goal where he maybe should’ve fed Samir, who had a better view of goal. But that’s perfectly alright with me. Samir actually did the very same thing in the first half. It’s a joy to see an Arsenal player take matters into his own hands for a change.
Denilson … Well, it’’s a matter of 1-to-4 with that lad: he wins one ball and then loses four. Tonight, luckily, his wins were more significant than his losses. But still rather shaky – and far too precautionary on the ball.
Traore is to thank his lucky stars for Johnson and Benayoun’s lack of end product tonight. They were running circles around him for the majority of the game and all (and I do mean ALL) of LFC’s through balls and/or crosses came from down his wing. For all his commitment and eagerness he still looks terrible when positioning himself defensively.
Walcott’s development seems to have come to a complete (although hopefully temporary) halt; he’s making the same mistakes as past seasons, that is, keeping the ball far too long and – for some incredible reason – still believing he can run directly through the torso his marker. He badly needs matches like tonight’s to get back to peak condition: lots of playing time resulting in a victory and, as such, increasing morals.
Finally, I’m now turned over completely. It took the man a good few seasons to establish himself as a reliable, if mediocre resource in my eyes, but all that has changed by the course of this very season. His lack of determination and authority when cuing his interventions is alarming; his commandment of territory subdued and his charisma quite frankly bland.
We need a new keeper.
Viva Arshavin!
And viva Wenger’s halftime fit (if that’s what changed the plate for us)
Walcott really is rubbish
Arshavin is pure class
Vermaelen was great
great game overall
and i can proudly say i have a “man crush” on Arshavin
almunia the worst keeper in the league and denilson i honestly dont know what wtf arsenae sees in him.hes awful.not good enough for the arsenal.
EDIT by Chris: no need to CAPS it mate.
Agree to both of your points … really do not know why Almunia is losing his form day by day ….. and I have no clue how many matches will Denilson need to feel confident …. Ramsey is doing better just after playing about 10% of the matches (or even less) in the league …. give him a chance, he deserves it …. but not denilson
Unfortunatley for Denilson he does a lot of unoticed work. Defensively he is always there applying pressure, clearing, reading the game to make intercepts and completing non risky passes. He like Diaby and Theo are just back from injury, try to remember these players haven’t played for weeks and weeks. Theo has missed a lot of football it takes time and games. Denilson tends to rock up with great goals I realy do see a lot o fpotential in him.
Spot on again with the ratings chris.
*****The only thing i would change is Traore. I would take him to a 7.0 or 7.5. He was a beast back there. Let’s not forget how he frustrated Torres into lashing out at him, which should have earned fernando a card. Also, he is just coming into the first team from a season long loan where he played midfield, not LB. He is definitely going to be a solid player. I think he is better and has a better upside than Gibbs. He’s fast and our best LB option going forward…better than Clichy. All he needs to do is improve on his defensive positioning. His on the ball defending was superb.
*****Song was also solid. I would give him a higher rating simply because he had to pick up denilson’s considerable slack. I feel bad for him…whether its diaby or denilson, he has to be two midfielders at once!
*****Almunia would have got a -1 if i was rating him. He is terrible. He is weak in the mixer and so unsure of himself that he is always out of position. Our defense would be considered on par with Chelsea’s if we had a quality keeper to organize and bail out of defenders from time to time.
It seems Traore and Song’s ratings will divide the many tomorrow. I saw many giving Armand a “3″ this evening and Alex a 7 or 7,5. I’m not sure if Armand was really as bad as “3″, in my opinion he is one of the few who could leave the pitch at half time with his head high. As for Alex, for maybe the first time this season, I saw him in trouble in the first half, big trouble, though he did recover in the second half.
Song did recover in the second half, physically and technically. He had a good game overall.
Traore did his job but seemed a bit short physically in the last 10 minutes.
Ratings are spot on, although I would have given Denilson less.
Traore was injured last week wasnt he? I assumed that was why he tired and wenger took him off.
Overall he was very solid really. His concentration and mental toughness have improved massively after his loan. Tbh, I think hes better than gibbs because on top of that hes a lot more physically developed than kieran.
Slight issue i have with traore is that he doesnt always support the attacks as clichy and gibbs do, but he has the talent to play a decisive cross or even score when he does go forward – and to be fair though, his injury or maybe even tactical instructions prevented him from going forward more today
i think he pulled his hamstring on that late run he had…thats why silvestre came on for him.
“a quality team like ManU or Chelsea can play poorly and still win the game”
is something I have read dozens of times in comments here, as if arsenals failure to do this differentiates us from quality teams.
Frankly, I’m angered by the level of pessimism in your piece.
An injury riddled arsenal team went to anfield and beat a full strength Liverpool,which beat Manu 2-0 earlier in the year.
We showed resiliance and played till the end, so no one can complain about our usual shortcomings. Good work by the boys while our competitors stubled over weaker opposition.
I thing I never or rarely do when I write is to mention other teams in a way to justify our negative results. Seriously, I don’t care what Chelsea or United do, how they win or how they lose, the point is that no, we were not an “injury riddled arsenal team went to Anfield” my friend, it was only the forward line which had missing pieces, the midfield did not and in the first half, the midfield was torn apart and it was not the first time I saw it.
How would you have reacted had the referee given Gerrard the penalty and Liverpool went 2-0 at half-time, something which they thoroughly deserved, and eventually won?
Chris, you keep saying that the midfiled is not affected by injury. In a sense that’s true as the only one out is Rosicky. However, since Arshavin is forced to play the striker role, this weakens our midfield. One of our two best midfielders is not in the midfield.
Another point I read (don’t remember quite where) that I thought was interesting. Did you notice that Arshavin went straight to Arsene after scoring his goal? Normally he runs off by himself to celebrate, but he went directly to the manager today. I though this was a great sign. It may be that Russia is out of next year’s world cup and Arsenal is now his main focus. But I think it really had to do with Arsene’s tirade at half-time. It was nice to see Arshavin respond to the manager and how important he apparently values Wenger’s approval.
That’s the thing. They did not get the penalty, they got a goal despite a blatant offside position next to the keeper and we managed to come back and win.
It’s our first win there in the league in something like five years and you still make it sound like it’s a negative thing.
Thats exactly right. How many times have Arsneal missed out on a penalty or a decision? When that happens Chris you dont dwell on it and use it as an excuse, so why do so for another team?
Fact is our defence held up during the first half, and Liverpool didnt have to many true chances. During the second half we thumped them and that was enough to win the game.
We had our first, second an third choice strkers out through injury.
We had our first and second choice left backs out through injury.
We had our most experienced midfielder out through injury.
We had to play a midfielder in the striker role.
We had to start with Walcott, a player who has played less than 200 minutes all season and was hardly match fit.
We could not start with Diaby, who is ahead of Denilson for the cm position, who was not fit and could only come on as a sub.
We only had 7 out of 11 first team players. If thats not a significant injury list I dont know what is…
When we dominated Manchester United earlier this season but lost, who critisized our team and praised Manchester for having a grit and determination that we fail to pocess.
We beat Liverpool in similar fashion and you critisize our team for playing poorly, and put our victory down to being “very lucky”.
Double standards much?
I don’t know what you were expecting from this game, maybe a 3 nil rout, with liverpool failing to get any shots on goal, but whatever it was it seems it was completely unrealistic. We bet a team which finished second last year, which has the best striker and one of the best midfielders in the league, which bet ManU 2-0 earlier in the season, and you use words like this to describe our performance: ” shocking, depressing and negative ”
And then you put down the second half performance, where Arsenal absolutely dominated Liverpool, completely down to luck. How about writing something about the managers half time talk, a renewed resolution of the players after the break, or the masive improvement in form and total dominance of our team during the second 45?
I guess not. It was all down to luck.
When we play well but loose you complain that we are not good enough.
When we play poor but win you complain we are not good enough..
I dont know what fantasy land your living in but, EVERY team has good and bad games. Calling our playters below average is harsh. The reason I mentioned the ManU and Chelsea games was to point out that even “quality teams” have poor days, has players playing poorly, midfields torn apart and defences broken down.
Why don’t you read what Wenger said at half-time, I’m sure it was more than “shocking, depressing and negative”, he actually told the players they don’t deserve to wear the Arsenal jersey.
No, I’m sorry, I’m not the one living in dreamland, you are. I’m sure you thought we would win everything this time last season, I wonder what you were saying when the season ended empty-handed.
And one last thing: You blame the fact that Walcott was not match fit as an attempt to dress our win as a heroic one, but you fail to do the same for Torres, preferring to call him the best striker in the league and Aquilani. How many minutes have these two played this season?
Come on.
Torres has played 14 games this season. Walcott has played 6. AFAIK Torres has started in most of his games while Walcott has come on as a sub in all but 1 or 2.
Torres also had the mid week game where he got some playing time.
My main grief is not that you described the first half the way you did, but that you put down the second half down to luck, and had very little if not nothing positive to write about how Arsenal performed in that half.
This time last season I had little hope of us winning anything, just as I have little hope of us winning anything this season. At the start of this season I was hoping we would finish third. I still think we performed well in the second half, and that winning this game without a striker is a serious achievment. We should give the boys some credit.
Oh, and very nice to see Arshavin celebrating the goal the way he did. Its the happiest Ive seen him this season. I remember he didnt even celebrate one of the goals he scored at the start of the season. Good to have the Russian back
No wait a second.
Where did I say it was a lucky 2nd half? I said it was a lucky win, the 2nd half was much better than the first though all started from a lucky own goal.
It was a lucky win after a terrible first half in which Liverpool could have easily went 2-0 or 3-0 up. I hope we at least agree on this.
Apologies, my grief is that you put our win down to luck.
The more I think about it the more this game is similar to the ManU Arsenal game.
Here we were lucky with the own goal, there ManU were lucky. Yes we could have been two or three down (yay we agree!
), but so could ManU during that game.
And what Im whinging about is that you put ManU’s win down to determination and resiliance, and our win down to luck. Just seems like our team isnt getting a fair appraisal.
Yesterday we were comparing Denilson and Diaby and well Denilson did very little wrong for the full 90 minutes,what about Diaby???He came on and almost gifted liverpool a goal by giving away the ball in our third of the field needlessly.Its becomin a habit for him and thats why i prefer Denilson to Diaby any day.Your ratings for Denilson is too harsh coz quite frankly Song had more misplaced passes than him and defensively i think they both played well,so do you agree with me that you have issues with Denilson?I had always maintained that I preffer Traore to Gibbs and I am glad my man is proving his critics wrong and doing me proud,well done Traore.I also dont agree on your rating of a player on account of his goal return.Scoring a goal cannot make up for anonimity throughout the match.If i am not wrong i think this is second time you are doing that for Arshavins case.You should rate players according to their output throughout the game and not just one single moment of brilliance,coz if that were the case what would stop me from giving Almunia an 8 rating for stoping that one on one shot with Torres to compensate for his crapy showing this evening?I also agree that we need another keeper or at the least bring Manone back coz i dont have faith in Fabianski either and Almunia is quite simply past his best.
Come on mate, if it wasn’t for Arshavin we wouldn’t be here talking about a win, we wouldn’t be here talking of a draw for what I know. Yes, a striker may sleep for 90 minutes but grab the match winner in stoppage time and that makes up for his anonymity throughout the match.
that is the funniest thing i’ve ever seen here,Chris in favor of arshavin????!!!that’s sooooo wrong man,he is even strited with arshavin.he has had some complaints even in the past,anyway the only thing i dont agree is denilson’s grade,i think he was more for a 5,5 but agree with the comments he could’ne lost us the game.
Lets just remaber that arshavin is forced to a position tht isn’t for him,and still two gals and a penalti won,and what a goal
i’m using windows 7 sorry for the mistakes, can’t find the f drivers
“Denilson did very little wrong for the full 90 minutes” … mate, no offense, but I am not sure if we were watching the same match …. with Denilson it feels like we are playing 10 against 12, and every time he gets the ball, I get my heartbeat increasing …. I honestly think that Chris was very lenient to give him a 4.5
Sure, sure our midfield was so bad that Pool did not threaten even once in the second half. If it was any other team you would be in awe at how our midfield totally stiffled the opposition. You watched the game allright but did you notice Arsenal were not playing in red this time?
I definitely watched it more than you …. and if you were following all the conversations, you would have realized that not a single person is making any complain about the performance in the second half … it was outstanding, with the expected composure, desire and the mental strength …. all the complaints are about the first half …. and as we all Arsenal, we are just trying to discuss and debate about several weak points, and mistakes we made in the first half …. and mate, in this forum, we expect more of discussions which shows some footballing understanding and knowledge than any personal attacks.
first of all, noone on the Arsenal team today played above a 7, Arshavin included. we played better in all the games we have lost this season than we did tonight. i make a correction, Vermaelen was the only saving grace and was the man of the match for me. Song was the glue that kept an under performing midfield from collapse and Cesc, was Non-existent. Denilson for me had a better game that he did, call me crazy, but when was the last time we ever saw cesc run out of ideas and have to dribble a ball out of bounds, or for 20 minutes, not be able to make a proper forward pass. if watched closely, between the 15th and 40th minute i counted 3.
Walcott is not a player halting in devopment, its a player who has played less than 200 minutes of football in this our 15th game of the season.consistency, form, and confidence can only come from playing games, give the kid a break. I have often said Theo is Wright-Phillips’s tunnel vision, trapped inside Thierry’s body but there are signs that he is maturing and becoming more technical, and less predictable. however he was just out muscled today, and thats indicative of a player who has only been back for 3 games.
Arshavin showed his class, and why he should be rotated to the top of the spear attack more often as one chance is all a quality player needs. it doesn’t make his performance today good, but it shows that he is world class.
Walcott was not a 4 today as his rotation to the left side is what broke down a Liverpool defense that had us pegged for 45 minutes. he clearly gave Glenn Johnson tons of problem as his run was what resulted in the own goal, and his run inside the box is what caused Glenn Johnson to leave Arshavin unmarked in the box after Theo had rotated inside. Walcott was intelligent today on a day when his abilities clearly were failing him. and that is the sign of a developing player.
Arsenal didnt deserve to win today, however i’ll take the 3 points as its a sign of the team development when we are able to win while clearly outplayed. these boys are finally maturing.
Im inclined to agree with you on walcott today tbh.
I thought he played fairly intelligently, didnt try to do too much, too often as I thought he might and he did make space for others.
But he only really played to the level of a young player breaking into the side, not mature 1st team player on 60k a week.
Only now perhaps he should getting a similar number of opportunities to someone like bendtner or vela in the squad, rather than just walking into the side after injury as tho he IS thierry henry. That’s what really bothers me about the walcott situation.
Dont agree with the ratings for almunia and particularly denilson.
I dont think almunia looked comfortable but did actually deal with all the high balls apart from the goal and one before where he was actually fouled by the elbow (unless I missed one after). His distribution was poor today though
Cant defend his performance too much – i didnt like it either, but when someone does something wrong, you always give too low a number imho.
I thought Denilson played a lot better than 4.5. First half particularly he was the only one who wasnt awful. I think hes very important in there with song and cesc but we’ll see who wenger decides to play now that diaby has returned.
“attempted penalty, attempted red card” – i disagree. They pointed out it was an opportunity for johnson to dive for a pen, i dnt think it’s fair to use that against denilson. And what was the attempted red card? He barely caught mascherano and the guy went down holding his face…? If the ref had given a red it would have been ridiculous. (Btw the ref was fairly kind to us today – makes a bloody change!)
I thought Song was actually quite poor in possession today. When he had the ball he dallied a bit too long – that plays right into liverpool’s game-plan and he got caught out quite a few times
Overall though his presence in the side is always extremely positive at the moment, and he more than made up for his mistakes in possession with his presence and ball-winning.
Also on walcott, you can defend him for being rusty, but he was poor in midweek, so why did he play??? Terrible decision. He should have been kept on the bench, he might have made a better impact that way.
Considering how Nasri kept on moving on the right wing, it would have made much more sense to start with Samir on the right and Carlos Vela on the left, but as always, Wenger prefers to keep the Mexican on the bench.
Haha!
I knew ye’d somehow work Vela into your assessment of the game, ye crafty old fox
look carlos is better in every are than theo but carlos is weak but agree wenger needs to stop giving theo runs for poor performances
Vela isnt weak. Particularly if you’re comparing him to theo.
I dont know why people think that.
He slipped over a couple of times in the last match, and obviously hes not going to bully defenders but he can hold his own physically
Something else mate.
The Johnson penalty episode is so much like Rooney vs Almunia. If that was Rooney, he would have intentionally touched Denilson’s leg and went down and a penalty would have been awarded. Johnson is no diver, no striker so he doesn’t know how to win a penalty in those occasions, but for Denilson to challenge like that was completely unnecessary yes.
heres an area we just disagree on.
I dont think you can blame denilson that some people will always be looking to cheat him.
I see your point, but if johnson had dived and the ref given a pen, I would have to blame johnson for diving and the ref for buying it rather than denilson for being the victim of a cheater – I am framing it more in a way that suits my pov tho. I guess at some point you have to learn to cover your bases and do your upmost not to give them the chance to win a pen against u.
I dont think its quite so easy as that though, as gallas bought one hook, line and sinker in the game yesterday, and you can hardly accuse him of naivity or lack of experience. You just try to defend as well as you can, and sometimes theyr able to cheat you.
I think as well btw, if denilson’s giving johnson an opportunity to dive reflects badly on him, surely gallas’ missed challenge on gerrard (that 9 times out of 10 WOULD have been given as a pen) should reflect even worse on him? – maybe you can accuse him of naivity?
WHAT THE HELL MATE.. SHOCKING RATINGS.. U HAVE NOE IDEA… walcott i agree but he needs more games.. he hasnt played much. ohhh what the hell………..
It would be nice if you could expand a little and provide your own ratings maybe?
Good points, Chris.
Although we were quite poor in the first half, this is the kind of game everyone says we never win. It wasn’t pretty, but we got the job done. Reminded me of our game at Old Trafford where we outplayed the Mancs, but they came away with the spoils. Everyone just said that Man U knows how to grind out results. It’s nice to see the Arsenal on the winning side of one of these kind of games. Walcott continues to be unimpressive. Another great goal from Arshavin!
Winning ugly never looked so good.
Finally, Arsenal were able to pull one off, on the road to boot, without the usual consolation style points of playing pretty.
Clearly Liverpool took a page out of ManU’s playbook and came out gang busters, placing the Gunners under withering pressure. Admittedly Arsenal were lucky. An in-form Torres would have converted his early opportunities and have salted away the game by half time. In fact, were it not for Almunia’s floundering boo-boo goal keeping, Liverpool were lucky to have a lead at half time.
Defeatism set in after Liverpool’s own goal, and Arshavin’s two touch, quick strike goal completely demoralized them to such an extent thereafter they really had no clear scoring opportunities. Arsenal’s confidence grew in the same measure Liverpool’s frustration increased with every minute passing in the second half.
Iron men Vermaelen and Gallas played huge. Traore was equally impressive. Along with the consistently reliable Song, Denilson’s contribution shouldn’t be under estimated, adding needed steel to a previously soft defensive midfield. More than anyone else, clearly Cesc misses his interplay with target man RvP and seemed flat at times. But hey, he’s Fabregas and can sprinkle magic dust passes across the field at any time. Same with Arshavin, then all of a sudden the opposing goal keeper is retrieving the ball from the back of the net. Walcott remains an enigma and, upon RvP’s and Bendtner’s return, shouldn’t come close to sniffing a place in the starting XI. For all the hype, he has failed to live up to the advance billing of his potential, a disappointment who thus far has not earned to have his ticket punched to the South Africa WM.
Words fail to describe the mediocrity that is Almunia. Last year and this season, his misadventure have cost Arsenal valuable points and games lost and, if Wenger continues to stick with him, will do so again. Whoever is on the bench is better than Almunia between the posts; They can’t do any worse.
With ManU’s recent loss, their defensive deficiencies evident, and Chelsea without Drogba (during the African Nation’s Cup), scare no one, with their defense also leaky. Both teams will drop points. After today’s result, stick a fork in them. Liverpool are done and have officially quit.
In all, Arsenal, game in hand, are now sitting pretty.
Winning ugly and sitting pretty – not half bad.
Remember: Ya heard it here first. Tell ‘em Phillydawg said so.
Hey guys, when is clichy back? Any idea? Coz we really need him!!!
he should be back for the aston villa game alongside rosicky, dont know about eboue yet and bendtner around january early, gibbs around febuary, djourou months same as robin too
Great result 3pts won at fortress Anfield against their “best 11″ and we were not on our game until 46th minute after rollicking from AW .Please AW give Fabianski a run in the team,at least he can catch a ball,Walcott needs more games,we have 2 easier games coming up i really believe we should give Ramsey games and rest Cesc he is either tired or carrying an injury,looks like Silvestre will be playing LB as Traore picked up hamstring strain.With a lot of luck we could be top by Xmas lets believe….come on you gunners….keep the faith.
After 35 minutes of it it was enough for me today i was furious i couldn’t watch it then i get a text of a 2 1 i ran in and it was 1 2 at 75th min hope archivan is ok he limped away as did torore the first 35 min was awful we couldn’t keep the ball i was shocked but the statistics then showed 56% position to arsenal @the 75th Liverpool didn’t show strength but at the 89 we got the 4 minutes it fealt incomfortable but then we won we won i am thrilled happy and smiling well done
iam thrild
ha ha. You missed the action in typical gunner style – Cheer team when the times are good and abandon the Black Pearl when you see the Flying Dutchman !!
I think the ratings are pretty fair, although I thought Sagna could have got slightly higher. He was the only attacking threat in the first half, and very solid defensively.
Having listened to the post-match interviews, it sounds like the decisive factor was Wenger’s not-so-famous hair dryer treatment. Apparently he completely went off at the team at half-time, and said they weren’t fit to wear the shirt etc. And it worked!
Also, let’s not forget just how poor this Liverpool side is: they do have a lot of good players, but their confidence is gone, they’ve won one of their last six league games, three out of fifteen in all competitions and are out of the UCL. They will really struggle to make the top four this season and never really looked like equalising once Arshavin scored his goal.
Hi Ben,
where can I get a preview of what AW said during the interval. . .it seemed to have worked
So you rated Song a 6, Nasri a 6.5 and Denilson a 4.5
Just to help you see what you missed:
Tackles Won/Lost:
Denilson: 9/2
Nasri: 5/3
Song: 1/2
Interceptions:
Denilson: 7
Nasri: 3
Song: 4
Passes Successful/Unsuccessful:
Denilson: 49/6
Nasri: 18/8
Song: 38/11
I have seen the game twice. There is not one single objective reason to rate Song ahead of Denilson. May be the haircut?
Then the second half was the best defensive performance by an Arsenal team in a very very long time. Liverpool had 0 shot on goal and never looked threatening. How you can rate our midfield so low defies logic.
What’s with the stats man???i can give the ball to song in a 1 cm distance 10 times successfully,nasri has to do it in more dificult occasions,as they are oftenly in the attack,don’t look at the stats,i would give denilson a 6,but (a real passive 6),stats can be deceiving.
Stats are much less deceiving than out-of-one’s-ass ratings, sorry mate. Unconviced? Look at this site’s ratings, compare them with goal.com, the times etc (btw both have Denilson ahead of Song). See the disparity? Stats don’t lie. You know it otherwise you would not have made this worthless arguments on passes. Were Denilson’s tackles easier too?
Agreed.
Ask anyone on this forum who they thought won possesion most for Arsenal and I would bet $100 no one would say Denilson. Tackles are something most people just dont notice, and its only once the stats come out where you realise who was winning the ball in the midfield. I wouldn’t give Denilson too high a rating for that fact, but certainly his tackle rate would raise him up a bit.
I said i would give him a 6 fist of all,and if you consider passes not important why did you wrote them on your comment,yes he made 9 tackles ok,i just dont think that one should rely on the stats only,like you did,anyway sorry for wasting you time with my worthless comment
Song lost the ball more often when trying to dribble as well. Not his best game in possession
Something that showed up to me big today is how small a front line we have with Nasri and Arshavin. I thought our passing was very un-Arsenal like most of the game. But then it dawned on me that that last quality ball wasn’t there most of the time because the midfielders had nobody to pass to. It’s too easy to knock Nasri and Walcott and Arshavin off the ball or just make them disappear in a crowd. RVP provides a target. That’s no comment on their work or game, but some height on the front line would be nice. I’ve never been at Bendtner fan, but maybe we do miss him.
Also, I am finally ready to admit we need help in goal.
I red the comments,but nobody mentioned the fact that we have one of the worse keeper in the league… It is a shame that a top club like Arsenal do not have a world class goal keeper…
Alumnia will cost us more point in the future… He is too unreliable …
When you look at all the teams in the premiership, most of them have a keeper playing for his country…
Also and personally Walcott and Diaby( he is “shit” ,it is sickening ) should have stay injured,they are both useless…
Again (and i said it before), Walcott will not raise to become a world class player, he is one dimensional and paying 12 millions for him was a total rip off…
Anyway we won,we were lucky,let’s hope Arshavin does not get injured (we will be in a load of dirt)…
Nasri was “grandiose” (fantastic)
Sagna,Gallas and Vermy were great
Traore did the job
Fabregas equal to himself
Denilson should be picked now, before Diaby
Arshavin is a wise magician
Walcott,thanks he was replaced
Song! well we’re going to miss him! How do we cope in the midfield?
We were lucky that torres didnt put that first easy one on one,the ref was good with us on some occasions….I think we all need to wake up in the morning and have a good monday watching andrey’s goal,but after that think about the first half that was horrible to watch,as Chris well said ” problems are still there and they may come back to haunt us”,serious problems ,specially the psychology that we lack all the time in big games…..Arshavin isn’t made for that role but as he is one of the best players in the world he can cope with 2 goals in 2 games(and more) but we really need a dzeko style player,specially for the headers….
Well spotted rating except that you were very harsh on Song. Considering the fact that he was against one of the best midfielders in the world, Gerard and Machirano, what he did was awesome. Like what one of our mate pin pointed out, Arsenal this season has been ateam that you dont wanna wish to watch with out varmaleen in the back, song in the middle n Van in the front. The later has been missed a lot. Varmeleen and Song are man of the match and they deserve equal n the highest (may be together with Arshavin for his magic goal) ratings.
I can’t say much we were lucky poor first half bt Arsharvin did the magic WE NEED A GOALKEEPER sorry Chris for the caps i just had to Song the unsung hero Keep the faith Goons
song needs a higher rating. man of the match for me. his passes for perfect and he can also set up play. he did not play badly at all in the first half, i think he was the best out of our team in the first half.
although shav was really responsible for the victory i dont think his overall performance was impressive.’ cudhv passed on the ball at so many points in the game but i saw a bit of selfishness in im especially after he scored….Aw we won!!! yay!!!
why does cesc fabregas take free kicks?!. anyone please explain that to me!!. he always try to float the ball into the box and all defenders from every league in the world even here in africa knows that. didn’t manchester united win 3 trophies in a row just because of taking their free kicks right, why do we always forego that opportunity. arsenal will never win the league until they take advantage of the free kicks—–good free kicks will solve 2 problems——-(1). the other teams will stop kicking our players because everytime they give away a free kick, it will be a goal, that will reduce our injuries and that’s the answer wenger had been looking for when he said our injuries are no accidents but that he didn’t know the cause. (2). we will get easier goals than all the hard labour arsenal players have to go through. ———-arshavin, nasri, rosicky, vela & vermaelen are better free kick takers——–fabregas should be relieved from that duty as soon as possible——–anything within 30 yards should be hit direct to goal——arsene wenger should realise that he doesn’t have aerial players to keep sticking foolishly to indirect free kicks——–man u won 3 league titles courtesy of free kicks, anyone who doesn’t agree with me should revisit all those 114 games and see how many wins & draws were dictated by free kicks——–why do we always have to receive the hardest blows courtesy of free kicks as we continue wasting all our chances————-i love fabregas, but i always curse when he steps over for a free kick.
No more caps FREDDY KOIGI, last warning mate sorry.
Thanks mate, my school teachers fault.
Van Persie is our best free kick taker! but his out and neither of the players left can take a set piece like him corner or free kick….
wenger did mentioned that at the beggining of the season we were very dangerous at set pieces (we all know the goals scored by gallas and vermaelen) but now without the dutchman we are toast…
and defensively i think a half or more of the goals conceded this season are from set pieces..
Thank you Matt, I have also realised that Denilson is well underrated by gooners.Its good you brought up the stats to defend our case.Most sites rated Denilson ahead of song and i think he deserved it today.I think the problem here is that guyz compare him to Fabregas which is unfair.Vermaelen for us was man of the match today.This guy is just so good 2 watch.Did anyone notice how he single handedly cleared all the aerial threats into the box?Lastly i hope Arshavin will ok coz he looked so much in pain after that blocked shot.
My oh my, statistics are back in Denilson’s defense. As long as they are functional, I’ll keep believing my eyes.
Do statistics mention the second half header with which he helped Liverpool get on the attack? Or the first half pass which helped the home side catch us on the wrong foot?
Those examples are so minor. It’s often just bad fortune that leads to the other side having a decent attack from a misplaced pass.
Sagna and walcott combined to give aurelio a free run down our right hand side, and song got caught in possession pretty frequently throughout the game. He also very nearly gave the ball away in our own box, trying to run with the ball after we’d just half-cleared an attack. The stats actually backed up my own view of how well song and denilson played – and if anything it would be more in denilson’s favour but they dont mention how often song got caught when attempting to dribble. (Not trying to attack song, his presence is enough to make a big difference, but I think people are comparatively very unfair on denilson)
Nobody is 100% perfect at keeping the ball, and everybody gives the ball away in a position that starts an attack for the opposition at times from arshavin and fabregas, right down to vermaelen – it’s just that some players get attacked for it more.
They may seem minor because no Liverpool goal came from his mistakes. All I know is that on Denilson it’s last season all over again. People keep on saying how he recovered in the second half to have a solid game. Well I prefer to focus on the first half, the clear example of why I keep on saying he should not play for us.
Fact is that whenever he’s on the ball I shit my pants at the prospect of what will come next.
And on a final note, you said it mate, the ref was kind to us, by kind I include all those times the Brasilian was easily dispossessed yet Webb gave us a foul because he went to ground. Had it been Mike Dein …
Why do you focus on the negative?
Why do you say we had a favourable ref during this game, when on most occasions you dismiss refereeing errors?
“They may seem minor because no Liverpool goal came from his mistakes” – yes but you level that only at denilson but not the others. It’s a little bit wrong to make that argument as well because players in all teams give the ball away like that in every game. Maybe it looks worse for us because we play such an attacking formation, and when we lose it it is easier to break on us.
And as I said, song lost the ball more – and it’s reflected in the stats.
Most of the time the ref was right to call those fouls in the middle. He got a few wrong, but I dont know how many of the bad calls were on denilson. They certainly weren’t all on denilson.
It’s all different perspectives. You “shit [your] pants” when he gets the ball, I certainly do not. Maybe that has affected your rating of him as compared with song, who got caught out more often on the ball, and gave it away more with his passing.
Lol, had it been mike dein we would have lost anyway. Gallas would have been off early on, we’d have probably lost the game 5-0 in the end. That’s a refereeing issue though.
We got fortunate yesterday with quite a few decisions – that doesnt excuse the last god knows how many matches where we’ve been thoroughly screwed by refs.
I think gerrard has started to get a reputation with the referees (rightly so!) and that might be why we got a lucky with the pen.
Imo btw, that shouldnt be a pen anyway. Its the easiest thing in the world to kick the ball away and run into the defender’s leg. Its unfair as the defender is genuinely just trying to get the ball, the other player is just looking for the foul, or has no control over it. The player with more control should be given the advantage – nonetheless 9 out of 10 refs would probably give that
Well so here’s some more data to dispell your bias:
Fouls won/conceded
Song 4/4
Nasri 2/2
Denilson 4/2
“Fact is that whenever he’s on the ball I shit my pants at the prospect of what will come next.”
I think that sums it up. It’s on an emotional level. Presenting you with facts is as likely to change your outlook on the player as it is to convince Bergkamp he should travel by plane since air travel is safer than hitting the road.
Denilson conceded two fouls in the entire game? He conceded at least four in the first half alone.
And yes, one and a half years of shocking displays from this player make me worry whenever he’s on the ball.
One thing’s for sure though, I’m glad you only visit our website after games because if you visit other blogs, you would be spending your time to defend the Brasilian there, because believe me, some of the comments against him I read yesterday on other blogs, especially in the first half, were as shocking as his display.
Don’t worry, I’m not uder the illusion that the the Boo & Bleat Brigade is going to suddenly stop the relentless atttacks against our own players. As soon as Diaby starts his nect game, they’ll focus on him although it looks like Walcott is their latest boo-boy now.
One knows it’s a BBB site when neutrals (aka BBC, Guardian etc) game have more positive things to say about the team and players in their game analysis.
Chris y the double standards?How come Denilson is the only one u are rating according to his first half performance?Please just be fair on your ratings and not just rate out of likes and dislikes for a player.
I rated Song low as well for his first half display, didn’t I?
Maybe you should be fair on your comments.
Thank god Wenger lambasted the team at half time.I would say that was the worst first half performance all season.We appeared to play 6-4-0,and liverpool weren’t that good.
Almunia keeps getting stick,quite rightly so.3 out of 5 times he hoofed the ball away it went into touch.Look at his body language,he is playing as if he wants out or perhaps just can’t perform to the level require.
Walcott regardless of injuries,can’t win a tackle and continues to disappoint.
Denilson has his fan club, but not for me.his dinky 5 yard side waise passes do nothing,he should be stamping his authority on the game,and therefore cesc is left with more work to do.
take the armband off fabregas or if not let vermaelen do all the shouting on the field.
Song is now regarded as our best overall player,shows how far we have progressed.
We got lucky in a crucial game, and it is imperative that we buy in january a physical presence and put Fabianski in goal.
I think Davi brings up an interesting point in the Denilson debate. I think it’s true that fans tend to judge Denilson differently from Song, Diaby and the other midfielders. Is that unfair? I don’t think so.
The question should then be asked: what exactly does he offer? He isn’t a goalscoring threat, he doesn’t have much pace, has precious little physical presence and his passing is nowhere near the level of someone like Fabregas. I would say his strengths are positional play and being a pretty decent short passer.
In light of this, the statistics you mention aren’t so impressive. Of course he will have more passes, and more successful passes- his role is to pick the ball up from one of the other players, turn, and slide it off to someone else. He’s pretty good at this, except when he gets brushed off the ball. Of course he will get more interceptions- his role is to sit in the open space and pick up the pieces. Even the tackling statistic is unsurprising- Song closes down the space and forces attackers to pass it off, buying defenders time. Denilson plays a little further up, where more tackles need to be made. I am surprised that Song only made 1/3 successfully, but he didn’t have his best game.
So basically we’re looking at the statistics which will always favour someone playing in Denilson’s role: that’s some pretty strong sampling bias right there! Instead of comparing Denilson to Arsenal players with different roles, you should compare him to midfielders playing the same role at other clubs. Comparing apples with apples, and all that.
So the following question stands: who offers more? Denilson or Carrick? Denilson or Fletcher? Denilson or Mikel? Denilson or Ballack? Denilson or Lucas (don’t answer that one!)? Denilson or Parker? Denilson or Petrov? Denilson or Palacios? Denilson or Jenas? Denilson or Huddlestone? Denilson or Barry? What about Bowyer,Cattermole Cana or Muamba?
My point isn’t that Denilson is hopeless- he’s not. Nor is it that he’s somehow worse than all of the players I listed- that’s difficult to judge. However, I do think that at least some of those players can do the job Denilson does as well, if not better, while offering more of a physical presence and attacking threat. At the very least, it shows that he is NOT clearly better than midfielders playing at almost every club in the division.
As such, I would say that this indicates he is a a ‘median’ EPL player in his position. For someone who last year played the most minutes for a club with title aspirations, and is an automatic starter this year, that just doesn’t seem to make sense.
mmm
I think the difference is, song isnt technically a great defensive midfielder. he misses a lot of tackles and gives away more fouls than he intends.
Hes more like vieira. A physical presence who can tidy up in midfield (usually better than yesterday). He also has pretty good playmaking skills and could play the fabregas role to a decent level imho.
Denilson is a *technically better DM. He makes more interceptions and tackles because he positions himself better and is more difficult to beat 1on1.
“Of course he will get more interceptions- his role is to sit in the open space and pick up the pieces.” – you make it sound so easy, but he’s one of the best at that job – how is that not a good thing??? This is why he is seen as similar to gilberto. An invisible wall, a technical, intelligent defensive midfielder. He will get stronger as he gets older, and once that is added to his game he will be considered an excellent player.
Also, you said “compare him to midfielders playing the same role at other clubs. Comparing apples with apples”
And then you list many players who really dont play the same role. Of those you mention, maybe ballack, lucas, huddlestone & jenas are fair (given that most of the others play a different system, and therefore have very different roles). Even then they have slightly different roles and styles. What is wrong with that?
Id say only ballack is clearly better, but seriously, hes been one of the best CMs in the world in his time and has bags more experience etc. He also gets more support from lampard compared with fabregas, and thus is allowed to express himself more – whereas fabregas’ main role is clearly to start and participate in attacks, so song and denil have more work to do compared with the chelsea midfielders.
Overall we are a much better side defensively when denilson is there alongside song.
To Davi: firstly… can you tell me where you get the statistics for interceptions (except for watching the game of course), as I’m trying to do a table on excel comparing players’ performance. Excessive perhaps, but I’ve got some interesting findings already. The thing is, statistics are useful if used in the right way. But usually they will just back up our intuitions.
I agree that Song isn’t about technique, but rather that ‘physical presence’ dimension. Having said that, there is a skill to not letting a man beat you one on one. I can tell you categorically that Denilson is not a better one-one defender than Song (check the table below). He is very good with interceptions, and better than Song- but not better than a lot of other players in the EPL. And in no way do I think intercepting the ball is ‘easy’- but it is Denilson’s job. No-one says that holding the ball up, laying the ball off or scoring goals are easy, but that is what strikers are judged on- it is their role.
And re: ‘apples with apples’, I agree that roles differ from team to team. But DEFINITELY not as much as they do within a team. My point is that other players can perform the role that Denilson plays, and do more besides. Check out the spreadsheet I conjured up (stats from soccernet and the Telegraph):
Player Played Passes (completed) % completed Tackles won/lost % won
Denilson 7 (0) 449 (395) 88 14 (9) 61
Song 12 (1) 702 (608) 87 34 (6) 85
Ramsey 2 (8) 265 (221) 83 6 (4) 60
Carrick 9 (5) 640 (532) 83 24 (8) 75
Fletcher 12 (0) 712 (613) 86 34 (10) 77
Mikel 7 (3) 455 (411) 90 18 (4) 82
Ballack 11 (1) 625 (526) 84 13 (4) 76
Lucas 16 (0) 870 (749) 86 46 (22) 68
Parker 14 (0) 776 (644) 83 40 (12) 77
Petrov 15 (0) 550 (434) 79 50 (11) 82
Palacios 15 (1) 668 (574) 86 45 (17) 73
Jenas 6 (5) 384 (340) 89 19 (5) 79
Huddlestone 16 (0) 896 (690) 77 44 (15) 75
Barry 14 (0) 651 (487) 75 34 (7) 83
Bowyer 14 (0) 428 (308) 72 23 (9) 72
Cattermole 8 (0) 195 (152) 78 16 (5) 76
Cana 15 (0) 491 (353) 72 42 (15) 74
Muamba 13 (1) 280 (205) 73 36 (16) 69
Ferguson 15 (0) 767 (612) 80 26 (7) 79
So where does Denilson rank? He comes 3rd out of 19 for percentage of passes completed, and 18th out of 19 for percentage of tackles won (ahead of only… Ramsey!). I can’t comment on the interceptions, because I can’t find stats anywhere.
If we focus on his strengths (passing accuracy), and limit ourselves to players within 4% of his mark, we are left comparing him to Mikel, Jenas, Song, Fletcher, Lucas, Palacios and Ballack. I will remove Song and Palacios from that list because they play an obviously different role. Except for Ballack, all these players play a lot of low-risk, short passes without really taking on higher-risk passing options.
Mikel wins 82% of his tackles, Jenas 79%, Fletcher 77%, Lucas 68% and Ballack 76%. All are markedly better than Denilson, at 61%. This makes sense- he’s less physical than any of those players.
Now look at attacking statistics (bearing in mind some players have played more than others):
PLAYER ASSISTS SHOTS GOALS
Mikel 0 8 0
Jenas 1 9 1
Denilson 1 3 1
Fletcher 1 14 3
Lucas 1 5 0
Ballack 2 28 3
Bearing in mind he has only played 7 games, Denilson seems to be more of a goal threat than Lucas, about equivalent to Jenas and Mikel and significantly worse than Ballack and Fletcher.
You can draw whatever conclusions you want from that table, but the following seem fairly clear:
- Denilson’s tackling is far worse than average for an EPL midfielder
- Ballack is pretty much better than Denilson at everything you can possibly do on a football field
- The players who are statistically most similar to Denilson are Lucas and Jenas. Jenas starts about half of Tottenham’s games, while Lucas is a figure of ridicule among Liverpool supporters, pundits and pretty much everyone except Rafa Benitez
Does this mean that Denilson is a bad player? No, only an average one. There’s no disgrace at being second-best to Ballack, but a weak-tackling player who offers only short passing and interceptions should definitively not be an automatic starter for a club trying to win the league.
Ben, please be my guest if you want to publish a piece, with these statistics, in a better-formatted article.
Sure thing Chris, I’d love to. Can you give me some guidelines regarding word limits, structure, formatting and other such things? I’ll get started on it and see if I can dig around for some more in-depth statistics as well.
E-mail me on chris@thegunninghawk.com and we’ll take it from there
Chris, wtf is this?
You dont believe in stats unless they back up ur argument?
And now you want to run an article to basically bash one of our players?
Nice
Something’s wrong with you I’m afraid, Davi.
I kindly asked Ben if he wanted to publish his statistics in an article so as to be better formatted, statistics about 19 players of the English Premiership.
I did the same further down with Matt.
If you believe anything I write, anything I say, anything I hint at is an attack at Denilson, yes, you have a serious problem my friend and I kindly ask you to stop jumping to such sad conclusions.
But anyway, you were happy with Denilson’s performance after last season’s FA Cup semi-final against Chelsea and that tells it all really, so I’m not sure why we’re even discussing this.
I didnt see any other point to the article. And it just seems weird that suddenly stats are important to you
The whole point of Ben’s comment was to say that denilson isnt a good enough player…
If Im wrong, I apologize, but you cant blame me for thinking that can you?
The “By Our Readers” section is open to everyone and I invite everyone to write in it, regardless of the material. The only material I don’t accept is profanity, direct insults and such.
Ben’s statistics seem to be very in depth but that doesn’t mean I now believe in them.
I can’t blame you for what? For twisting my words, judging me and jumping to conclusions?
mmm
well, I think I’ve shown it was a fairly logical conclusion to jump to, although I see now I was too hasty in applying such force to my comment.
See, when you say: “The only material I don’t accept is profanity, direct insults and such.”, I immediately assume you are directing that at me, given the tone of the discussion. But considering what you are saying, Im sure I’ve misinterpreted again.
Anyway, I get too deep into these discussions sometimes. Sorry if I offended you or anything mate.
Yes, in fact I was referring to the “By Our Readers” section where people can publish their own stories.
Anyway, let’s move on
Awesome work Ben …. I just do not understand when someone is trying to point out the weak links of our team only to ensure better performances in future, why some people in this forum take it personal. I have never seen Denilson in a commanding role in the midfield, and that’s why I was trying to argue about Ramsey getting his chances. In a 4-3-3 formation, not a single member of the midfield can afford to be lazy …. and clearly, Denilson is that.
This is good work.
Looks like you’re correct on the tackles front
One question on that though, when it says tackles won/lost, does that mean he attempted a tackle and failed, or attempted a tackle and gave away a freekick or well i dunno?
I think as well the interceptions stat would be the key one . “He is very good with interceptions, and better than Song- but not better than a lot of other players in the EPL” – I dont think that’s the case. Last season I think denilson was top or one of the top midfielders in that dept but I havent checked.
Again, I dont agree with mikel as a like-for-like comparisons, but apart from that its good
Fletcher is another good one, and he destroys denilson to be fair – Gets away with a more from the refs though in general.
I feel like Im sounding disingenuous saying “good work”, but I mean it, you put a good case forward there. I will have it in my mind in future matches
I’m not sure exactly- I got the data from the Telegraph online. I actually found some data for interceptions from the Guardian online. They both use the same data collection firm.
My assumption is that any contest for the ball is a ‘tackle’, and whoever comes out with the ball ‘wins’ it. I’m not sure how fouls work. I’ve actually done some more number crunching, and when you include interceptions Denilson comes off a lot better. Still not brilliant, but top third of the midfielders I looked at.
Anyway I’m sure we’ll continue this discussion another time, probably soon as I hope to get something written up in the next 24 hours or so.
Cheers
Ben
Last year Fabregas_the_King from ArsenalInsider did a really extensive study of Denilson and Song performances using these stats. Unfortunately the article is not available anymore (the link is dead). Basically it was all the stats that are available in the Guardian chalkboards but he had the version over the entire season for all the players in the league.
What I remember of it:
* Denilson had better stats than Song (which is not surprising given that Song did not perform well until later in the season and was the main boo-boy at the time)
* Denilson had the highest number of interceptions in the league
* Depending on the stats he was around 5-8th top midfielder
Unfortunately he barely played this season so his stats won’t tell us anything yet. Still it would be interesting to compare Song with Carrick, Mascherano and Cana for example.
SO here I found another article which I remembered reading last summer. Opta stats comparison and analysis for Denilson, Song and Flamini the year before:
http://arsenalcolumn.wordpress.com/2009/05/31/denilson-has-risen-from-the-shadows-to-take-centre-stage/
Here’s the data:
2008/9 Denilson (3,074 minutes)
Tackles won (includes aerial): 148 (average 4 per game)
Tackles lost: 81 (average 2 per game)
Pass interceptions: 146 (average 4 per game)
Accurate passes: 2,009 (average 59 per game)
Bad passes: 238 (average 7 per game)
Assists: 7
Goals: 3
2008/9 Song (1,741 minutes in midfield)
Tackles won: 104 (average 5 per game)
Tackles lost: 50 (average 2.5 per game)
Pass interceptions: 51 (average 2.5 per game)
Accurate passes: 742 (average 38.4 per game)
Bad passes: 90 (average 5 per game)
Assists: 0
Goals: 1
2007/8 Flamini (2,665 minutes)
Tackles won: 102 (average 3.4 per game)
Tackles lost: 56 (average 1.9 per game)
Pass interceptions: 57 (average 1.9 per game)
Accurate passes: 1,321 (average 44.6 per game)
Bad passes: 100 (average 3.4 per game)
Assists 2
Goals 1
Ok Matt, but:
Do statistics say in which part of the field all this happened? Even I would have 2,009 accurate passes if I just pass it sideways without never going long. Also they don’t say where Denilson’s bad passes took place and whether they put our team on the back foot. It’s one thing to misplace a pass because you go long and the ball ends in the hands of the goalie but another to misplace it in midfield and gifting it to the striker.
Let’s try to be realistic, statistics are numbers, nothing more, nothing less.
Cool,
I cant claim to have done the research myself, but Ive heard that denilson is doing a lot worse in the stats than he did last year.
I think it might have something to do with playing less games, but I might just be making excuses
Glad someone is looking at Denilson the way it should be seen: with realism. Sometimes I believe many just want us to reach the crucial games of the season such as the F.A. Cup semi-final with Chelsea last season to realise how damaging some players can be.
If you trusts stats to prove that Denilson has a bad season then you surely agree he was the best defensive players on Sunday since his stats were leaps and bounds above the other midfielders?
I’m not trying to make the case for Denilson for the entire season. My simple point was that onSunday Denilson was the most efficient player defensively on the pitch:
- most tackles (almost all successful at that)
- most interceptions
- most fouls won
In addition he lost the ball less than the other players, either by misplaced passes or conceded fouls.
I was simply exposing that starting the player evaluation with “Misplaced passes” was simply not true and easily disproved. I’ll leave it at that.
I’ll be happy to read you stats expose, I hope you will also include last season too. I have somehwere bookmarked a data source that has interceptions and fouls. I’ll let you know if I can find it.
Look Matt.
I appreciate the contribution you gave to this thread and I hope you do it for every game, seriously, but I as I said a lot of times, I believe what my eyes see and not what stats say.
And then I believe Ben provided his own view on stats and they don’t seem too kind to Denilson. But having said, in the same way I invited Ben to publish an article to expand on his stats, I’ll be more than happy to have one of yours published if you want to expand on the subject.
Fair enough. Thanks for the offer.
Oh my….. I know I’m a recent reader Chris, and I’ve never really said this…. but I think your ratings are OUTRAGEOUS…..
Luck did play our way FINALLY!! It’s about time.. luck was on our side with all the matches this weekend.. for a change.
HOWEVER…. our team was so solid regardless or Liverpool’s better first half…. the team was playing as a UNIT tonight…. Defensively we were amazing….. AMAZING YES!
With a team effort like this one I don’t understand how the gap between the better performers and the worst ones could be so high…. in fact the only player I thought was AWFUL was Walcott. The player reminds me of Robinho before he got muscular…. getting pushed around like a little kid. I can’t say that about Denilson….
Denilson…. gave Mascherano a nightmare…. asides from hitting him in the hip…. he neutralized him….. and Mascherano playing a comfortable game significantly strengthens liverpool’s game…. Denilson was NOT sharp at times…. clumsy as ever…. but his fighting spirit was on…. and he gave so much to support to defense…
How come you’re so lenient on Fabregas?? he hasn’t been SPECTACULAR in a few games now….. including last night. in fact Fabregas played better when Diaby came on.. he can’t do everything by himself.. he needs a bully to help him create space.
Song was great throughout the game and man of the match without a doubt for me… but I do believe Denilson helped him out a lot last night…
How come Gallas didn’t deserve the same rating as Vermaelin? He was no less….
And Traore…. who had a great game…. still had his mistakes too… how come they weren’t highlighted…. where was he from watching KUYT??? Kuyt was the single player I was most worried about because of the freedom he had waltzing around the right wing unmarked…
Almunia wasn’t bad at all…. except for the sloppy save that led to the goal and a silly throw later on in the game.. he upped his game and he gets a 3????
Overall…. perhaps technically there are many observations that can be made for improvement…. but the team played well as a WHOLE… it wasn’t about individuals.
I am happy because our team meant business and the spirit was there unlike the times in which they were wondering off in their thoughts…
They were focused… and adjusted their performance as the game progressed…..
The luck was there…. but I call that a SOLID performance considering the importance of yesterday’s game and the fight that they gave.
Everyone in my opinion gets between a 5.5 and a 7… Walcott Lower….. Song higher.
Denilson 7… that’s if you’re judging yesterday’s game only.
As I’ve said to the rest, let’s see how you react the day we will lose a game because of an Almunia or Denilson mistake.
Until now we got lucky but I doubt luck will be there the next time.
Why do you have to resort to hypothetical reasoning and guilt by association? If your argument was sound you would have facts to support your claim instead.
Only just watched it now.
Song was man O the Match. I think he is our Essien.
Denilson…hmmmm I said this after his last 2 performances….he doesn’t seem to cut it against the big teams. I don’t know how people argue this point?
Walcott ….. Easily bumbped off the ball (more than the rest)…I still have faith.
Arsharvin…..is brilliant. Anonymous however we have no one else capable of scoring that goal. had 1 chance and took it!
Sagna was was the weakest of the backs. I was impressed defensively with Traore.
As per the last few weeks. We desperately need a front man!!!! we won, I know. it was dogged and I’m proud of them but we won’t win the league like that. Also we need cover for our CD’s ….and yep I’m converted, Almunia scares me!!!!
we have money in the bank, we can let a few players go…….come on AW. Let me feel the fabric of your fibre!!!!!!
where did you see the game fresh?
I knew Arshavin would score. Almunia failed again. Why am I not surprised? Time for him to be replaced by a better goalkeeper.We were very lucky.
Chris, I have nothing against you but I’m just puzzled by your persistence in giving Denilson a poor rating, regardless of how he played. Below is the rating given to Denilson and Song by an independent website, Goal.com. I think the rating is definitely more objective since they are neither for nor against Arsenal. Your insistence in giving Denilson a poor rating seems to me to be a case of personal bias and prejudice.
Denilson – 7 – Took a while to get going, in which time he picked up a booking for a studs-up tackle on Mascherano, but once he settled down he was instrumental as Arsenal fought back.
Alex Song – 6.5 – Used the ball less effectively than those around him, but offered a vital presence, and picked up plenty of loose balls in midfield.
Ken, as I’ve said last week, goal.com ratings rarely reflect the true outcome of the game. They gave Walcott a “6″ which is very flattering if you ask me.
The point is simple. Many rated Denilson on his overall performance and it’s funny how many statistics are shown to defend this player, yet no-one mentions:
1. The silly back pass in the first half which put Liverpool on the attack
2. The silly header in the second half which again put Liverpool on the attack
3. The unnecessary free-kick given away from which Liverpool scored
4. The sluggish way to challenge Johnson in the penalty area, challenge which could have led to a penalty
And I’m sure there are others. The problem is that many keep on overlooking these things but sooner or later they will lead to trouble. Alex Song may have given the ball away, but never put Liverpool on the attach and caught us on the back foot when he did so.
On a final note, I always encourage my readers to provide THEIR own ratings and I might add something to start doing so in the article. Ultimately, I could easily go around and find someone who rated Denilson a “5″ to support my rating but as I always say, believe what you see and not what others say.
“Alex Song may have given the ball away, but never put Liverpool on the attach and caught us on the back foot when he did so.”
How can that be put down to anything other than luck? Its a moment of poor control, of course it gives the opponent the opportunity to counter
Im not even sure thats true. I saw him dispossessed a couple of times which gave liverpool the chance to break. Like denilson, he sometimes got fouls called in his favour that were a bit fortunate as well
Maybe we should be together in chat tomorrow and analyse Denilson’s game
I sense Burnley’s midfield will be as tough as Liverpool’s.
Sounds like a good idea. I’ll try to join in.
We’re away arent we?
If we are this won’t be an easy game.